Security World: firewall-wizards digest, Vol 1 #1636

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: The Death Of A Firewall (Christine Kronberg)
2. RE: Intel vs. special purpose FW-1 servers (Paul Melson)
3. Re: RE: SSH brute force attack (Christine Kronberg)
4. Re: VOIP versus PBX (Marcus J. Ranum)
5. RE: Forwarding traffic to an active IDS/Firewall (Paul Melson)
6. Re: Forwarding traffic to an active IDS/Firewall (Dale W. Carder)
7. RE: Intel vs. special purpose FW-1 servers (Paul Melson)
8. RE: Intel vs. special purpose FW-1 servers (Sawyer, Christopher)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:54:08 +0200 (CEST)
From: Christine Kronberg <Christine_Kronberg@genua.de>
To: firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com
Subject: Re: [fw-wiz] The Death Of A Firewall

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005, Martin Hoz wrote:
> On 7/9/05, James Paterson <jpaterson@datamirror.com> wrote:
>> http://www.securitypipeline.com/165700439
>>
>> Be interesting to get the communities take on this article.
>>
>
> I'd like to raise a couple of things:
> A) the article says " By defining simple ACLs, we further isolate our
> backend servers" - I ask, is not an ACL a firewall after all? - Packet
> filter, but I think it fits in the definition of a firewall.

I disagree. A firewall is far more than a simple packet filter.
There is whole concept to fulfil.

> So, this makes me thing the author still thinks that some form of
> firewall still has some use in the network, AFA I can tell
>
> B) "The servers and their respective applications sit in their own
> DMZ, protected by an Application-layer firewall". So, an application
> firewall still has some uses too...

Yes, definitely. :-)

> I find the article interesting but contradictory... because, if the
> firewall is dead, how come there are still good uses to it?

Perhaps because "a" firewall is not "the" firewall? I, too, think
that there are several points open for discussion. I like the idea
of thinking the internal clients as not safe and putting them on the
same stage as the external clients.
There was something said about that "secure OS" ... and then ADS was
mentioned. I wonder how that is supposed to work together. Also that
part about middleware. Most middleware implementations I'm aware of
are a nightmare for security.

Yet, that article gave room for thinking and rethinking.

Have fun,

Chris Kronberg.

--
GeNUA

--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "Paul Melson" <pmelson@gmail.com>
To: "'Emily Conrad'" <emilydconrad@hotmail.com>,
<firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com>
Subject: RE: [fw-wiz] Intel vs. special purpose FW-1 servers
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:04:12 -0400

IMHO, there's no longer any viable reason to buy new Nokia/IPSO appliances
to run Check Point. You can match or exceed scale and performance with
SecurePlatform on cheaper x86 server hardware. And now that clustering is
part of NG-AI, Nokia's got nothing on SecurePlatform.

Crossbeam boxes, which I have no hands-on experience with, have extremely
high port density. If that's helpful, for instance if you need 10 firewall
interfaces per 1U of rack space, then these may be your only option (short
of looking at Cisco chassis switches with FWSM blades).

Even then Check Point supports 802.1Q VLAN tagging and virtual interfaces,
so you can turn a single physical interface on a SecurePlatform box into a
dozen or more logical interfaces by connecting to a switch that supports
VLAN tagging.

Anyway, my advice is to assume that you will be running SecurePlatform on
some x86 server (see HCL:
http://www.checkpoint.com/products/supported_platforms/secureplatform.html)
and then only select a different product if your environment requires it.

PaulM

-----Original Message-----
Subject: [fw-wiz] Intel vs. special purpose FW-1 servers

Hello,

We are working on a project to upgrade our firewall infrastructure.

One of the questions is whether to use FW-1 on a standard Intel server or to
use a special-purpose optimized version of FW-1 on a dedicated hardware
platform such as Nokia firewall appliance or Crossbeam systems C30/X40.

Does anyone have any advice on what factors are important when making such a
decision?

--__--__--

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:23:23 +0200 (CEST)
From: Christine Kronberg <Christine_Kronberg@genua.de>
To: firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com
Subject: Re: [fw-wiz] RE: SSH brute force attack

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005, Mark Ness wrote:

> I have seen lots of views on this subject, and if your security is good, the
> chances of any of these
> attacks getting in are minimal, but the possibility is there, and, since
> these are not customers viewing
> our home pages, but deliberate attempts at a login through ssh where they
> have no business trying to l
> login in the first place (many of them attempts at root) they are only
> interested in breaking in for
> whatever purpose, who knows. Maybe just for the challenge? Maybe to hijack
> your box? Maybe ID theft?

To install any kind of irc tools (psybnc and energy mech are favourites),
rootkits, phishing- and spamware, DoS and scanning tools. At least that's
what the kiddies tried on my homebred honeypot. So in my opinion those who
try have a criminal intention.

Have fun,

Chris Kronberg.

--
GeNUA mbH

--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:25:53 -0400
To: "Yehuda Goldenberg" <Yehuda@nj.essutton.com>,
<firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com>
From: "Marcus J. Ranum" <mjr@ranum.com>
Subject: Re: [fw-wiz] VOIP versus PBX

Yehuda Goldenberg wrote:
>What else do I have to worry about with VOIP?

We don't know much about the security of VOIP PBXes but since they were
largely developed by "phone guys" I'm comfortable assuming that there is little
or none. So you have the issue of accidental or deliberate denial-of-service
against desktop phones, but also the potential that the PBX can be attacked
over the in-band network that's used to manage it. Because you *KNOW*
that whoever manages the PBX will want to access it from their desktop
workstation not a workstation on a separate VLAN.

The protocols used for VOIP are "problematic" let us say. "Designed by
people who ignored security" might be a less tactful way to say it.
"Moronic" also comes to mind. That said, there appear to be so many of
them that it's hard to nail down whether you'll have a problem or not; it
depends on what you wind up using and where/how. The situation is
comparable to wireless - getting it all working in default mode is easy.
Getting it all working safely is hard and may be impossible.

Lastly, inevitably, someone will want to do VOIP with the outside world.
For cost saving reasons, or whatever (but really so they can talk to their
kid in college for "free") so there will be a move to let the VOIP through
your firewall. Then you will discover VOIP-spam. Of course the guys
who designed VOIP systems didn't take that into account, either.

Like every other "new widget technology" VOIP will eventually mature
just around the time that it's being replaced by some cool new new
widget technology that didn't take into account any lessons learned
from the last new widget technology. But there will be loads of vendors
with a $15,000 1-U rack-mount appliance that offers a complete solution
that fixes all those problems.

mjr.

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Paul Melson" <pmelson@gmail.com>
To: "'Vinicius Pavanelli Vianna'" <ds@hacked.com.br>,
<firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com>
Subject: RE: [fw-wiz] Forwarding traffic to an active IDS/Firewall
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:05:49 -0400

I'm not sure I have a clear understanding of what you're asking for, but in
effect, the 'fwd' command of ipfw does simple policy routing. Depending on
the model and OS version of your switch, policy routing should be possible.
See:
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/switches/ps646/products_configuration
_guide_chapter09186a00801cdf81.html#1260543

PaulM

-----Original Message-----
Subject: [fw-wiz] Forwarding traffic to an active IDS/Firewall

Hi all,

Anyone knows how I can forward all traffic the came to a Cisco Catalyst
swith to an gateway to do some IDS/Firewall/Traffic Shape?
In ipfw (freebsd) this would be done by an "fwd" rule to forward all packets
to an forced gateway, this can be done in an cisco device or i need to
emulate all the valid IPs on the switch and use a VLAN with the servers so
the IDS receive the packets and forward to the internal VLAN, this would be
a little harmful ;)

--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:18:49 -0500
From: "Dale W. Carder" <dwcarder@doit.wisc.edu>
To: Vinicius Pavanelli Vianna <ds@hacked.com.br>
Cc: firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com
Subject: Re: [fw-wiz] Forwarding traffic to an active IDS/Firewall

Thus spake Vinicius Pavanelli Vianna (ds@hacked.com.br) on Wed, Jul 13, 2005 at 06:39:35PM -0300:
> Anyone knows how I can forward all traffic the came to a Cisco Catalyst
> swith to an gateway to do some IDS/Firewall/Traffic Shape?

Use a policy route to force the next-hop. I think that's the
closest thing to what you want. However, given that traditional
switches are more or less agnostic to layer 3 information, you can't
do that unless you have a switch with a routing card, or actually
have a router.

If you're only looking for IDS stuff, most high end switches support
port mirroring.

So, a layer-2 solution could use vlans and have your IDS/Firewall/Traffic
Shape thingy route, bridge, or proxy-arp between them.

Or, use a PC or some other device that can make switching decisions
based on higher level stack information.

Dale

----------------------------------
Dale W. Carder - Network Engineer
University of Wisconsin at Madison
http://net.doit.wisc.edu/~dwcarder

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: "Paul Melson" <pmelson@gmail.com>
To: "'Keith A. Glass'" <salgak@speakeasy.net>,
"'Emily Conrad'" <emilydconrad@hotmail.com>,
<firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com>
Subject: RE: [fw-wiz] Intel vs. special purpose FW-1 servers
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:19:00 -0400

Starting with NG-AI, Check Point has its own clustering capability. And,
with some rare but painful exceptions, it works with a typical default
switch configuration. No need for Nokia, Nortel, or software-based HA.

For all intents and purposes SecurePlatform causes your x86 hardware to act
as an appliance. (It's just a stripped down RPM-based Linux distro, but
Nokia/IPSO is BSD, so...)

PaulM

-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: [fw-wiz] Intel vs. special purpose FW-1 servers

2. Are you looking to CLUSTER FW-1 for HA or load balancing ? If so, you
will DEFINITELY need to look for an optimized appliance-based solution.
And, based on my experience, I'd suggest the Nortel "Alteon" systems for
FW-1: a pair of Alteon Directors and a pair of compatible Alteon
Accelerators give you a clustered solution that doesn't require you to play
any oddball Cisco tricks on your switches, allows you a NUMBER of
separated nets behind the firewall, and even multiple DMZs. I've used Nokia
IP-series before, as well as FW-1 on Solaris, and can't say enough about the
Alteon platform. . .

--__--__--

Message: 8
Subject: RE: [fw-wiz] Intel vs. special purpose FW-1 servers
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:50:25 -0400
From: "Sawyer, Christopher" <Christopher.Sawyer@getronics.com>
To: "Paul Melson" <pmelson@gmail.com>,
"Emily Conrad" <emilydconrad@hotmail.com>,
<firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com>

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I agree the SPLAT is awesome, but what about he costs of VPG or HVPG
licenses need to run clustering on the SPLAT boxes...

The cost to convert our existing and the maintence on these licenses exceed
most Nokia hardware prices which comes with VRRP for free.

-----Original Message-----
From: firewall-wizards-admin@honor.icsalabs.com
[mailto:firewall-wizards-admin@honor.icsalabs.com] On Behalf Of Paul Melson
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:04 AM
To: 'Emily Conrad'; firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com
Subject: RE: [fw-wiz] Intel vs. special purpose FW-1 servers

PaulM

-----Original Message-----
Subject: [fw-wiz] Intel vs. special purpose FW-1 servers

Hello,

We are working on a project to upgrade our firewall infrastructure.

Does anyone have any advice on what factors are important when making such a
decision?

_______________________________________________
firewall-wizards mailing list
firewall-wizards@honor.icsalabs.com
http://honor.icsalabs.com/mailman/listinfo/firewall-wizards

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Thursday, July 21, 2005

firewall-wizards digest, Vol 1 #1636 - 8 msgs

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